southwestern bell, you ended up building at&t with an annual revenue of $120 billion. extremely successful. your book is "american turnaround" about companies. let me ask, are there lessons in american business that should be applied to government? there's a lot of people talking about that now. what would they be? >> well, there are several, i think. probably the number-one lesson would be revenue should exceed expenses. you know, that's a true business truism. >> what's been the key to success, though? >> well, the true -- the key to success is i think people. i think people are the reason for any success. if you have people involved, people in authority, people with the ability to do it, accountability, and hold them responsible, i think people can do amazing things. and i think we forget that sometimes. it's all about people in the final analysis. >> you know, there's a discussion about the boy scouts. should they lift a ban on gay leaders? you ran the boy scouts back in the day. what do you think, yes or no?